Mr. Dave Anderson: Sir Robin, there was a question raised last week that while these discussions about the budget are going on there may well be operational problems. For example, we were told that some nurses may be unsupervised because of movement within the organisations. Are there any other issues like that which could create an operational problem until these discussions are concluded, and can you confirm that proportionately the figure per head which is being allocated for the health transfer in Northern Ireland is still a lot higher than that which is available in England and Wales?

Mr Masefield: I can. We are aware of the latest increase and the figures available on the healthcare for prisoners in England and Wales, which of course is partly a function of the increasing numbers, but more significantly that has been boosted in this financial year. We are still something of the order of 40% additionally funded already in Northern Ireland on a year on year straight comparison, so far as one can achieve that. I am concerned about what one might call this interregnum position at the moment. That does carry a degree of risk for myself, and of course the Department of Health and our ministers as well. It is not very satisfactory that it should continue at some uncertainty for any length of time. There is a particular point about the nursing, as you rightly referred to, in that we had an excellent chief nursing adviser who is a professional with forensic qualifications working for us full-time in the Prison Service and we let her go in August with the imminence of the transfer on 1 October. That will be remedied from the Trust from the formal point of implementation, and indeed already we have had informal discussions with the chief executive to ensure that the professional nursing side within the Trust are aware of this.

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Q673 Mr. Dave Anderson: The report for the CJI has criticised the quality and quantity of education and educational work within the Northern Ireland prisons. We have seen examples in Northern Ireland and across the border in the Republic last week of some really inventive and innovative work which we thought was excellent. What is your response to those criticisms?

Mr Masefield: I think you have obviously, in a way, answered the question. I think it is like a curate's egg. I pay tribute to the education staff and the workshop staff. I think it is true to say that we have traditionally followed a certain model of largely having the staff internally from within the organisation and one of the discussions I have with Paul Goggins from time to time is whether we should not be looking to move towards a different model based more on the England and Wales one. It is a term which some trade unionists have difficulty with, I know, but in a different context, of outsourcing and one of the good examples of good practice is in Magilligan with the use of the (formerly Mevaden Abbey) North West College providing us with essential literacy and numeracy skills, and we have had over 500 certificates.

Q674 Chairman: We thought that was very good.

Mr Masefield: Yes. Thank you. There is opportunity, undoubtedly, to move further and one of the areas I want to look at is in the context of Hydebank Wood and I am delighted that we are going to be getting a professional educational individual on secondment with experience of further education sector, both to bridge the gap between what we are doing in the establishment and then that transition through to further education and opportunities on the outside. I think there is undoubtedly scope to do more work, for example, with juveniles probably in Hydebank Wood, bringing that up as a factor in education specifically. In terms of wider workshops, a tribute to my colleagues on resettlement, they have driven that agenda forward. Again, we are in discussions with DEL on the scope for that. We have had a number of initiatives. We have set out our stall with business and the community and they have been very helpfully working with us. One of my non-executive directors has set up a group there to help us try to find specific jobs and get commitment from up to 100 external employers to say that they will be willing to take on individual prisoners on release, and that is already an initiative that is bearing fruit. One is stuck to an extent with the infrastructure and I do think, very interestingly - and you saw for yourselves in Magilligan - much good work is done but it is a collection of outdated Nissen huts. As Anne Owers put it, very articulately - and I am afraid I cannot find precisely the right wording for the context but basically she said the built environment is the key to unlocking the potential of the prison and the staff. It is replacing, renewing that built environment which I think will of itself go quite a long way towards reinvigorating -

Chairman: The quality of what we saw at Magilligan in terms of tuition, instruction, notwithstanding the appalling buildings, was very high and what was very noticeable was that morale among the staff and among the prisoners was commensurately high. I think that is something we all felt and although you talk about it being a curate's egg, and of course it is, your counterparts in the Republic made it quite plain that we were seeing the best of what they had to offer - quite rightly, we wanted to see the best - and that they also had a curate's egg. He did not put it, being a good Roman Catholic, in quite those terms, of course! We are very conscious of the fact that you need to do something with Magilligan, but what you must not do is lose the quality you have got already.

Q675 Mr. Dave Anderson: Is there an issue about how you square the circle of improving the provision within the built environment, what you have to pay for and the desire to reduce cost, because in some ways from a purely amateur point of view it would cost you a whole lot less to bang somebody up for 23 hours a day than let them out?

Mr Masefield: I agree with that entirely, I cannot resist, and I have discussions off the record with my colleague Phil Wheatley from time to time about when you are facing significant constraints on financial terms one of the issues you have to address is the scope of the budget and the regime, therefore, and what you can manage to provide. Resettlement was until fairly recently, I think, a bit of a Cinderella in the Northern Ireland Prison Service and we have identified, with some success up to now, ways of finding additional funding for it. We are just working that through in Hydebank Wood now. By "resettlement" I would tend to incorporate all those purposeful activities that we are discussing. But it is vitally important, I think, that we manage to keep the focus on it and make sure that we do move that forward. That is again partly about the active engagement we have talked about, that whole approach from officers. It is sometimes quite frustrating when you get a small crowd who are very enthusiastic, wholly committed and very keen to work - and the family office is a very good example of that - and many do extremely well in the residential context but do not always seem terribly interested in coming forward and bridging that divide and helping to get involved, perhaps, in the programme-type work, say, addressing offending behaviour or addiction services and some of those other things which can critically play into resettlement and help supplement the more specific programmes of the teaching and workshop type that we have discussed.

Chairman: May I just follow up on Mr Anderson's excellent question, because when we went to Hydebank and saw the young offenders we also met with some of the physical education instructors and here you have got young men, full of energy which needs to be properly channelled and directed, and we had there some very enthusiastic instructors, one of whom seemed to have as his mission in life the creation of a swimming pool! I do not regard that as providing luxury for layabouts, I regard it as providing something constructive for young people whom we wish to rehabilitate. Is that your view, and do we have any hopes that you will get it?

Q676 Stephen Pound: With a sledge hammer, I would have thought!

Mr Masefield: I assume we would probably have to say in the context of the immediate future of Hydebank Wood and the other pressures on funding, many of which we have discussed this morning, it is probably comparatively low down on the list of corporate priority. But it is clearly a serious point and both the old juvenile justice centre and now the Woodlands facility have swimming pools for a smaller clientele than Hydebank Wood. There is a role for that. I would not deny that.

Mr Murray: Can I just say that I agree with you, Sir Patrick. One of the big issues for us as the Prison Service is this issue about providing for public protection and changing the mentality. That is purely about addressing issues around the security of prisoners. This is about getting behind prisoners' offending behaviour and looking to see what the causes of that offending are and doing something about it. I understand where the CJMA criticism comes from and we can and will do better than we do presently in terms of volume throughput, but certainly as compared with locking prisoners behind the door and depriving them of the regime, taking away their dignity, not letting them achieve while they are in custody, not dealing with their issues around addictions, family issues, children issues, literacy, numeracy, et cetera, that is not an option for us as a Prison Service. We cannot meet our public protection obligations -

Chairman: That is very reassuring.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

The full transcript may be read at: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmniaf/uc520-ix/uc52002.htm

Promoted by Paul Foy on behalf of Dave Anderson, both of St Cuthbert's Church Hall, Shibdon Road, Blaydon, NE21 5PT