Q261 Mr. Dave Anderson: Mr McCaughey, you mentioned the word "need" in your opening speech twice. Do you mean "need" in Northern Ireland or "need" in the sense of the whole of the professional probation officers everywhere?

Mr McCaughey: I used the word "need" probably because, as Chief Probation Officer, I am very proud of the service we have in Northern Ireland, but I think there is a difference in how we go about our business, as I have described, in, with and through the community, in partnership with the voluntary community sector, and still seeing offenders in their own homes and in their own locations.

Mr Doran: Chairman, if I could just come in on that, I think another difference between our colleagues in England and Wales is that when we have brought them over for visits - and they are very interested in some of the work we have done, particularly, for instance, on car crime - they have often remarked on the absence of excessive security features in our buildings. We do not have the screens and the distance between the visitor (whether it be an offender or a family, or even in some cases victims) and the person receiving them, whereas in England and Wales with a lot of probation officers you speak through an answering machine, you cannot physically touch the person, and that is because of challenges to the staff. Obviously the welfare of the staff is paramount, but we have been able to manage without those excessive security features, which I think is significant.

Q262 Chairman: You have not had any problems with staff being assaulted then?

Mr Doran: No.

Mr McCaughey: There was no record last year of any staff member of the Probation Board being physically assaulted. We certainly have had verbal issues to deal with, but we monitor that very carefully. I think, in fairness, if I could add, the absence of the major drugs culture may be a factor in how we are able to relate to offenders and manage the situation, as my colleague has described.

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Q297 Mr. Dave Anderson: When we visited the prisons, last month or the month before, I was very impressed by the work going on in the resettlement unit in Crumlin Road, seeing that the people were certainly prepared to move forward and were getting good support from the unit they were in and it seemed to be working well. Can the same be said about the programmes in and around Magilligan? Are there issues particularly about the lack of employment opportunities in the Magilligan area?

Mrs Lyner: In fact I would suggest that in relation to employment opportunities and links to the local community Magilligan has actually put a lot of time and effort into those and they are operating well, so you would see a situation where the resettlement connection would be working well in that place too. What I think would be slightly different and what fluctuates from time to time is the staffing levels that actually can be allocated to the purposes of either resettlement or family contact, what are called family liaison officers, and in different situations because of changes to different shift patterns we would find that the resources available either for resettlement or in connection with the families would ebb and flow, and again we find that to be totally unsatisfactory. We make a loss, and have made a loss, of some of the advancements in the Prison Service. Visiting arrangements are excellent in Northern Ireland and we have had a development for child centre visits for six or seven years. In fact we had learned from the Prison Service at one of our AGMs about five years ago, but with only two or three weeks' notification, that they are currently suspended because there is not the staffing available for that. It draws us back. So we assume we are moving forward but actually we cannot sustain the staffing level for some of these issues, which obviously might be seen to be peripheral to security, which will always get its staff and resources.

Q298 Lady Hermon: The number of prison officers is too low in order to facilitate the visits?

Mrs Lyner: Yes. It is to do with shift patterns and changes in shift patterns at the moment. There are not the bodies available to do it, that is right.

Q299 Mr. Dave Anderson: Is the geographical location of the building a problem in terms of your programmes?

Mrs Lyner: I think the geographical location of the prison is a problem for families in terms of accessibility, and I think if we were thinking about an accessible site - and we actually consulted with our local parties about this recently and everybody came up with the view that accessibility for families was an important issue. There is no doubt that Magilligan, because it has been there for a very long time, has lots of links into its local community, but it will not pass an accessibility test.

Mr. Dave Anderson: It is not as if some of the people who were in that prison, as we saw with Crumlin Road, can go out into what was their original community because it was just outside the door virtually. It is 70 miles away and you cannot do that, can you?

Q300 Chairman: If he were here, Mr Campbell, who unfortunately cannot be here today but is a Member of Parliament for the constituency which includes Magilligan, would argue passionately for a rebuild but a rebuild within the general Magilligan area. Do I infer from what you have just said to Mr Anderson that you would take a different point of view?

Mrs Lyner: Yes, we would feel that there would be two advantages to a site which would be more centrally located in a stretch that might run between Antrim and Ballymena. One is that it would be more central in terms of the transport network, and secondly there would be a useful connection with Maghaberry Prison in terms of the movement of staff, so you would not be requiring people to -

Q301 Chairman: Although you do acknowledge that there is a strong and fruitful community link-up with Magilligan?

Mrs Lyner: Yes, without doubt.

Q302 Chairman: Notwithstanding that, you are advocating a move?

Mrs Lyner: Yes, I am.

Chairman: Thank you. It is helpful to have this on the record.

Q303 Mr. Dave Anderson: Can I move on to educational opportunities and training opportunities within Maghaberry. Are there differences between those offered to mainstream prisoners and those who are separated?

Mr Conway: I think our understanding would be that the opportunities - certainly dissident Republicans (to use the generic term) feel that they do not have that same access. There is a debate about whether they are making that more difficult for themselves. They certainly do not feel, in terms of representations which have been made to us, able to take up those opportunities. We would not get into the sort of political rights or wrongs of whatever a particular grouping would espouse, but I would focus on the accessibility debate and argument. Basically, we would hope that all people in prison would have the same opportunities to engage in vocational and educational opportunities. I think, in reference to your previous question, it is certainly true that Magilligan has a reputation, and a deserved reputation, of having good local links and vocational and employment links within the area we are talking about. We would like to bring it back to the view of looking at the whole estate and whether the vocational opportunities which exist within the three estates, the three institutions, actually meet the needs of the labour market externally. That is not just purely the responsibility of the Prison Service but also another organisation such as the Department for Education and Learning. I think it is true to say that we and other elements of the criminal justice system have had difficulties in engaging with respect to providing training and vocational opportunities to prisoners and ex-prisoners.

Q304 Mr. Dave Anderson: Can you give us the specifics on what you mentioned in relation to what I was saying to you about a specific programme, or whatever? You mentioned that dissident Republicans were saying that they felt they did not have the access. Can you give us specifics on what particular area?

Mrs Lyner: I suppose they will have understood when they were moving into the separated regime that the Prison Service would have to offer education in a different way. As an ordinary prisoner, I can opt into the programme for basic skills or any range of other programmes and go to the education block for that, as I am programmed to do, whereas with the separated regime education comes into their area and there is in each of the areas just one classroom, so it is restricted. When people apply to go into the separated regime they understand what that may mean, but it undoubtedly is a restricted regime because of both the fabric and the numbers and the choices. There are options for an engagement in some level of education, but because there is one room and because it has to come in, it is going to be obviously less.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

The full session may be read at: http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmniaf/uc520-iv/uc52002.htm

Promoted by Paul Foy on behalf of Dave Anderson, both of St Cuthbert's Church Hall, Shibdon Road, Blaydon, NE21 5PT