Q510 Mr. Dave Anderson: Do you think overall that the schemes remain positive?

Mr Hanson: I think they probably have been positive but we have made no formal evaluation of the schemes as a government. Having talked to Tom Winston and Jim Auld, I can recognise from both sides of the schemes that there probably is a positive influence in those schemes. I have not done a formal evaluation of them and I have not done a formal assessment of their outcomes and whether they do reduce crime. They are independent of government. We are simply assessing how we put in place those minimum standards because, if we move to any form of funding, we would make that formal assessment. At the moment, we are simply trying to put that minimum standard in place.

Q511 Mr. Dave Anderson: Are you aware that the claim recidivism rate is in single figures and, although you might not have monitored them, you must have seen that, for example, we were told in Kilcoole that examples where people have been kneecapped or had their legs broken are non-existent. I do not know how regularly they were before but they were not uncommon. That must have come to your attention, surely.

Mr Hanson: Obviously I have been to Kilcoole and I have been to see Tom Winston at the Alternatives and I have seen Jim Auld and I do know from the statistics which they presented to me that there are successes in those schemes. What I am saying is that I have not formally undertaken an evaluation of the schemes or formally examined their claims on those schemes, but I think that they are a positive influence and the report of the Criminal Justice Review indicated that and, in my opening statement, I said that I believe ---

Q512 Chairman: You are neither denying nor denigrating but you are merely saying that there has been no formal assessment.

Mr Hanson: My personal view is that they have been a positive influence but I have not formally examined that and ---

Chairman: Your position is very similar to Sir Hugh in that regard who feels that, yes, they do have a role to play but, again, this has to be done. I would like Gregory Campbell to finish off this little session and then I want to move on to the very important issue which Dr McDonnell is going to deal with.

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Q534 Mr. Dave Anderson: When I asked you before, Minister, about whether you thought they were going work, you basically said you personally thought they were. We have heard from a number of people - Lord Clyde, Kit Chivers, Ronnie Spence and Olwen Lyner - who said that there is a potential for this Protocol to make things bureaucratic and lose the effectiveness of the schemes. Have you considered that? Do you think that you might lose the potentially good things because you are making it too bureaucratic?

Mr Hanson: There is always a danger of that, Mr Anderson, but, again, the judgement I have to make and the judgement that the public of Northern Ireland and the political parties have put on me to try to make is: does the public have confidence in these schemes and who is regulating these schemes and who is monitoring their activity? I feel that we need to put in place, given their interface with the Criminal Justice System and the potential for difficulties to arise, some form of minimum standard, and the minimum standards I have put in place, as I have said, are the ones that I have outlined in the Protocol. They will certainly create an extra workload, they will certainly be, in part, an extra responsibility on a number of agencies, but I think that their outcome will be that there will be a greater level of confidence in the ability of those schemes to do what they are supposed to be doing in the community, and that is the balance we have to make.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

Promoted by Paul Foy on behalf of Dave Anderson, both of St Cuthbert's Church Hall, Shibdon Road, Blaydon, NE21 5PT