Mr Hain: I quote from paragraph 2.16 of the IMC report. It says, "We found signs that PIRA continues to seek to stop criminal activity by its members and to prevent them from engaging in it. We believe that some of the senior PIRA members may be playing a key role in this." It also says, "That said, there are indications that some members, including some senior ones, as distinct from the organisation itself, are still involved in crime and that the increasing proportions of the proceeds may now be going to individuals rather than to the organisation." There is an issue there and we need to tackle it, but I do not think that it is a reason for saying that we do not recognise the huge momentous change that there has been for the direction of travel of Republicans, provisionals that is, in getting rid of crime, in rooting it out and, from an organisation or leadership level, actually putting a stop to it.

Q20 Mr. Dave Anderson: : On a similar line, the report said that not all arms have been handed in and that some people have retained control, mainly at a local level. Is there a worry that these arms may well be used in both organised crime and, perhaps even more worrying, may get into the hands of dissident republicans, terrorists? Also, is anything being done through the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning to account for these weapons?

Mr Hain: Again, I have not seen any evidence or any intelligence suggesting that there has been any leakage to dissident groups either of individual members of the Provisional IRA going over to the dissident groups, which themselves are small, fragmented and disorganised, though still a threat, as we saw from the Lurgan bomb, a 250lb bomb last month. I think that answers that point, but in respect of the IMC report, it is said that its present assessment (and I quote from paragraph 2.17) "is that such of the arms as were reported to us as being retained would have been withheld under local control, despite the instructions of the leadership, and the amount of unsurrendered material was not significant in comparison to what was decommissioned and that the reports they received do not cast doubt on the declared intention of the PIRA leadership to eschew terrorism and to follow the political path." The point I am making is, yes, it appears some arms, according to the IMC, were kept at a local level, but this was against the leadership's wishes and they are not significant in the overall picture.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

Promoted by Paul Foy on behalf of Dave Anderson, both of St Cuthbert's Church Hall, Shibdon Road, Blaydon, NE21 5PT