Q236 Mr. Dave Anderson: I want to ask you particularly about shebeens. You said in your submission to the Committee that they were widespread. Can you give us some idea of the scale of them and the nature of them? Are we talking about farms or houses? Do you think there any link between these and paramilitaries?

Mrs Carruthers: Shebeens in Northern Ireland were really started in the late 1960s and early 1970s, really as a result of the troubles and curfews that were imposed in certain areas. So drinking clubs sprang up and they were very widespread. As time went on more and more of those clubs became legitimate and they were brought within the proper registered club system. The registered clubs numbers grew from about 200 in the early 1970s to around 600 at the end of the time. A lot of the registered clubs, the properly run registered clubs, that we have these days did start off as shebeens. These days, when members would refer to shebeens, it is any form of illegal drinking den. Thinking about this, reports in the last year have not been that great. They seem to come in spates. It seemed a couple of years ago that I was getting a lot of reports about various shebeens around the country, whether they be in sheds, front rooms, possibly linked to farms. As to whether or not they are linked to paramilitaries, I could not say.

Q237 Mr. Dave Anderson: Have you any idea of numbers, which is the question I asked earlier?

Mrs Carruthers: I honestly would not know. I would simply be guessing.

Q238 Mr. Dave Anderson: Is it possible you can estimate the impact on your members on legitimate venues?

Mrs Carruthers: You have got both the impact obviously on turnover, on customers; you have also got the fact that some of the shebeens would be getting their alcohol from illegal sources. They might even be making their own, for all anyone knows. There would be an effect both on the legitimate trade on registered clubs and on pubs because obviously if people are going to shebeens, that is a lot cheaper and they would not be going to proper licensed premises. Also, you do not know where the alcohol in shebeens is coming from, where it is supplied from. We heard, for example, that one shebeen - I was told that was in existence - had proper taps, proper kegs. Where are these coming from?

Q239 Mr. Dave Anderson: What is the address for that one!

Mrs Carruthers: Obviously, at that time we spoke to the police and also spoke to the brewers to see whether they were able to be of assistance; and as far as I know that one is no longer there. They can be very inventive in the way they get access to alcohol, and that inventiveness fuels the illegal drinks supply, and it keeps going.

Q240 Mr. Dave Anderson: You mentioned to the Chairman about links with the PSNI. Is it possible to see how successful they have been in closing these places down?

Mrs Carruthers: It is very difficult actually because some district command units would be more helpful than others. In this particular instance they were talking about this particular subject. I fully understand the problems that the PSNI faces in certain areas in Northern Ireland, and I know that for example when I did report a shebeen once I was told that the police knew about it and had knowledge of it and were trying to manage the situation; but they were obviously trying to build links with the local community in that area, and so that type of set-up had to be handled in a very different way to how a different type of shebeen might be handled.

Q241 Mr. Dave Anderson: You are not suggesting the police turn a blind eye.

Mrs Carruthers: No.

Q242 Mr. Dave Anderson: It is just that sometimes -----

Mrs Carruthers: No, it is just that things have to be managed in different ways.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

Promoted by Paul Foy on behalf of Dave Anderson, both of St Cuthbert's Church Hall, Shibdon Road, Blaydon, NE21 5PT