Q11 Mr. Dave Anderson: In your submission you talk about a perception from the CBI that one of the main reasons why organised crime is still getting worse is the reduction of the police as a result of the Patten proposals. Do you have any idea what the numbers have been reduced by?

Mr Smyth: I spoke to many people in preparing our written evidence before coming here today. I think it is a very broad view that the PSNI is extremely stretched in terms of its resources. Many of our members, particularly those involved in cash and transit, have a good relationship with PSNI but there is a general view that the numbers on the ground are significantly less, the scale of experience is significantly less and it was certainly put to me that some of the intelligence is not as good as it was some years ago. It is starting to improve but it is going to take time. The view is that there is a big threat out there; the PSNI are under-resourced and under a lot of pressure in terms of meeting the threat that there is there in a whole range of areas.

Q12 Mr. Dave Anderson: Has the number come down?

Mr Smyth: In terms of the number of police on the ground that has come down quite significantly over a number of years but I cannot give you a figure.

Q13 Mr. Dave Anderson: We understand from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs there has been an increase in the number of officers engaged in tackling oils fraud from 25 to over 160. You say it seems it peaked in 2000 and the police are getting better now. Do you think that has had an impact?

Mr Smyth: I think it has had an impact. I think you have to look at a number of things. I think you need to look at exchange rates, particularly the exchange rates in the 1990s when it increased that discrepancy. You also need to look at excise duties and they have narrowed slightly. So those are two things on that side but I think at the same time there has been more co-ordinated action and more resources put into this. However it is still quite frightening. I think we are down to about 610 filling stations at the moment, about half of those are what we call branded petrol stations and half of them are not branded. I believe from the previous Committee's inquiries it suggested that a majority of filling stations use some degree of illegitimate or illegal fuel.

This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee. Neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings.

Promoted by Paul Foy on behalf of Dave Anderson, both of St Cuthbert's Church Hall, Shibdon Road, Blaydon, NE21 5PT